01 - Betsy Brunner

Featuring Betsy Brunner from Idaho National Labs. 

Join us as we chat about environmental activism, the power of volunteering, and how to juggle making systematic change at a large lab while also being an adjunct professor.

Resources mentioned:
1. Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer - book
2. The Serviceberry by Robin Wall Kimmerer - book
3. Kiss the Ground - movie

Transcript

Intro

Aparna: Hello to our friends of the pod. I'm Aparna.

Kiersten: I'm Kirsten.

Aparna + Kiersten: And you're listening to green collar.

Kiersten:Today on the show, we're going to have a conversation with Betsy Bruner, an expert in science communications at Idaho National Lab.

Aparna: We'll hit topics like environmental advocacy and small modular reactors, and hear some fantastic insights from Betsy.

Kiersten: So grab your headphones, head outside for a walk, and join us for our first episode of the pod.



Body of episode:

Kiersten: [00:00:00] All right Aparna and I are joined by Betsy Brunner I had the pleasure of meeting Betsy at this year's Association of Energy Engineers world conference in Nashville. Betsy is a scholar and practitioner who has spent half of her career in nonprofits and the other half in academia she manages to do both as the net zero business development and financial strategists at Idaho National Laboratory.

In this role she's charged with finding and securing funding to transition an 890 square mile campus to net zero emissions by 2031. Also as an adjunct professor at Utah State University she teaches courses like science communication, organizations and social change, and environmental communication. She also continues to push academic work on the environmental movements and ecotourism Betsy has worked across many areas including the environment, health, art, and education. This experience has helped her to understand deep [00:01:00] connections among these different subjects. When she isn't working she's likely skiing mountain biking hiking or trail running somewhere in the American West Betsy thanks for joining us I know you're an excellent example of all the various skills that can be deployed in sustainability work so we're so excited to learn more about your journey. As such I would love to hear about your current role and highlight your steps along the path to that current role

Betsy Brunner: Sure. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be talking with you about all of this. And I think, as someone who has degrees in English literature, art, communication, and rhetoric career in sustainability isn't something that I saw coming when I was younger. But honestly, my journey or my path is really motivated by the fact that I want to save the places and spaces that are closest to my heart.

The outdoors have always been a place of respite for me. It's where I go when the going gets tough to reflect and also get out some of my [00:02:00] anxiety and it's It helps me every single time.

Coming to the conclusion of wanting a job in energy was, I was pretty slow to realize that. And I think when looking back on it, part of that's because my connection to the outdoors was something really personal. And I wasn't sure if I wanted to make that public via a career. So when I was an English major, I loved writers like Ralph Waldo Emerson, Henry David Thoreau, Walt Whitman, and when I was an artist, I loved people like Andy Goldsworthy, Alexis Rockman, and one of my colleagues, Adrian Hatfield's work, but I had this always as something separate and it didn't guide my career choices.

So while I did work for a lot of different nonprofits and the environment, health and art, I didn't really start studying environmental issues until I started my PhD. I remember going into my advisor's office and saying, "I'm not sure that I want to study the [00:03:00] environment because I'm not sure I want to ruin something so close to my heart."

But I went for it and maybe one way that I made it apart for me was by studying environmental activism, but doing it in China. So I spent close to a decade traveling across the country, talking to people, including protesters, about their different feelings and beliefs and attitudes towards nature.

And then I also studied how China's government was intervening, creating policies and providing funding that transformed the way a country where the rivers literally ran black into a country that leads the world in renewable and nuclear deployment. So that research taught me a lot about the role of people in the role of government in creating change.

At the same time I was doing that during my PhD, I was also working with engineers via our CLEAR program. So CLEAR stands for Communication, Leadership, Ethics, and Research and the students they [00:04:00] were working on how to create solar panels with non rare earth materials and make them more affordable and easy to deploy.

So I was teaching them how to take all that great science and engineering that they were doing and communicate to people why it mattered and what impact it would make. Still, it did not occur to me to work in energy. So it wasn't until after I graduated, I took an academic position and then left for more nonprofit work and on the ground work that I eventually came to energy and I guess I realized this, that working in energy and working directly in sustainability was the best way I could make the biggest impact on what I loved most, the environment.

Aparna: That's a very inspiring story it's awesome to see how you've literally traveled across the globe and how many different inputs you've had over the years to really form this opinion that you wanted to work in the environment you wanted to work in your passion. I'm [00:05:00] curious it sounds like coming back and entering academia might have been the moment that you really pivoted into public sustainability if you will, is that a fair statement or was there something else that was a defining moment that made you shift?

Betsy Brunner: Returning to academia was definitely a huge part of it, but I was still a little bit afraid of the science, if I'm going to be honest. I didn't know if I had a place with engineers, And that may sound weird, but the moment I really understood that this is a great place and space for me was, so I came back into academia.

I decided, hey, I can make environment part of what I want to do. It won't ruin it for me. But then in the nonprofit I was working with fish biologists, eco hydrologists, geomorphologists and silvologists, like people that study the forest, so I was working with a bunch of scientists and I realized that they will accept me as part of their community and that I can help them.

And so I guess I was always worried that the field of sustainability was important, [00:06:00] but not a place for me. I thought it was for engineers and people that work in facilities, but after coming back to the nonprofit world and then working at Idaho National Lab, I realized how much strategy, communication, and cultural change are essential to successful sustainability efforts.

So there, it was a place for me. And once I realized that I had role to play. It's all over.

Kiersten: I love that I really think that a lot of people will resonate with that fear of, " Oh, I don't have this specific background so can I work in sustainability?" and that's certainly something we want to highlight on the podcast which is why we're so excited to have you as a guest. One of our hypotheses is that every job can be a green job if that's the ethos that you bring to it but we want to highlight ways in which that's true. So I'm curious if you have any thoughts to add on that through line based on your own experience of kind of overcoming that fear and identifying the skill set that you offered to be a part of the movement.

Betsy Brunner: I do think [00:07:00] that every job can be a green job and I also think that getting over the fear of being with scientists and engineers, it is really important and I just want to make one note that really helps me put things into perspective. So I was studying to get my PhD, which is the highest level that you can go in education and I was feeling really intimidated working with people getting their BA in engineering. I was worried because I thought that they wouldn't think that I was smart enough or that what I did was important, but I will say two things: one is if you aren't in the sciences, but you want to work with them.

Yes, you are smart enough and you can work with engineers and use your skillset to compliment theirs. So one thing that I found with a lot of engineers is that, they might be really smart and what they do, but they might not be good about communicating what they do and if people don't understand why your work matters, then it's not going to in a lot of cases.

I do think that there's tons of ways to make every job Green job, and I love doing this at [00:08:00] Idaho National Lab because I'm always trying to talk to people about how their job relates to net zero. If you're in IT you're helping so many people reduce emissions by facilitating online meetings and allowing them to work from home.

So I have to drive to work. If you're an employee safety and you're helping people with bike safety, so they can bike to work, you're doing something. If you're a bus driver, you're not only helping people kind of carpool on a large scale, but you can also alter the way that you drive to increase fuel efficiency.

So I don't national lab or INL implemented a program with bus drivers to teach them how to drive differently and it cut down on fuel use. If you're in the travel department, one of the things that we've worked on is linking people that are going to conferences up so that they can carpool together or share a car rental.

So there's really seriously, so many ways that people can make their job a sustainable job and or support the hard science work of the people that are innovating the technologies that will help [00:09:00] us get there.

Aparna: I feel like that's the hardest part though right like you have this idea you have this end goal right but then you work backwards. What are our steps to get there? How does every single person have a role to play? And It sounds like you've successfully done that with the help of the national lab so mad kudos right there!

Betsy Brunner: Thank you.

Aparna: Yeah, of course. And You've done this successfully and if we have listeners who are in a similar position, trying to bridge that gap between the end goal and where we currently are, do you have any guidance for them on how best to translate these complex ideas into something more tangible and how you've overcome those barriers to translation in your history as well?

Betsy Brunner: One of the most important things I learned about reaching hard goals is putting together a really good team with complementary strengths. As an academic, I'm a one person show. I have to write my own grants. I have to be the PI. I have to do all the paperwork. I have to do all the budgeting. I have to research, edit, all of the things. [00:10:00] So I was tempted to, to try to do, or I'm always tempted to try to do everything and be really good at everything, but working at the lab and having a goal as big as net zero by 2031 across 890 miles, 6100 employees, 300 buildings and 700 vehicles. I can't take that on.

I'll never learn enough to know how to do all of that. What we did was we put together a team that included engineers, facilities, and site services, researchers, and figured out how to leverage all of those strengths to push us forward and when you have a strong team that understands each other's strengths and feels like they can depend on the other person when they don't have the skill set or information or know how to do something, you become a really tight team that knows when you fail at something or when you [00:11:00] trip and stumble it's okay, we're going to pick each other up and we're going to keep on going, and rather than be embarrassed about any kind of mistakes we make, we'll share them as lessons learned with others to say, "Hey, I've been there too. That happened to me. I fell on my face. I got scratched up, but we were able to pull it all together and keep working forward." So I think leveraging strengths, working together as a team and having somebody that can inspire to meet those goals are, it's all incredibly essential if you're taking on a big task, like net zero.

Kiersten: That's excellent. You do hold two roles So there's the role with the INL and then you're a professor so maybe we'll take this as a two part but I'm curious for both roles a little bit more about what the day to day looks like. You've given some examples just now about building the team and some really cool examples about how you've saved energy at INL with the bus driving course so just curious really- What do you do day to day? We'll start with INL and then you can answer [00:12:00] as a as well.

Betsy Brunner: Sure. At INL, a big part of my job is being at the computer, writing strategy, writing grants, organizing information working with team members to come up with solutions, a lot of meetings, a lot of talking, a lot of strategizing, a lot of writing, and also presenting materials to the decision makers, the final decision makers.

Another big part of my job is going to conferences and other events so that I can meet people with really good ideas that we can implement at INL. That means meeting people that are working on problems like carbon capture. How can we do carbon capture and how can we do it well and how can we integrate carbon capture into processes that already exist?

So we have researchers at INL that are already working on carbon capture, but we also have industry professionals that are tweaking, refining and implementing. So if I can put them together and we can figure out, for example, how to sequester carbon [00:13:00] and concrete. That's win-win for everyone. So a lot of it is going out there, seeing what other people are doing, helping them make their processes better and or demonstrate them on site in collaboration with the researchers.

So I'm constantly learning new science. I hear so many words that I don't know what they mean, but I stick in there and hang with it until and I learned so much. I cannot believe how much I've learned. It's like going to school again. In a really good way.

Then as a professor, I think my biggest job is to find the readings that resonate with my students, expand their understanding, and then also connect them with real world experiences and or professionals.

For example, when I teach a course like organizations and social change, I'm constantly bringing in guest speakers, Kiersten, you've been one of them, that talk about their work and methods or tactics that they're using to create social change. So I do bring in a lot of nonprofit [00:14:00] practitioners and we talk about how they do their work, but also how they're motivated to do their work by their values and beliefs.

So we understand how can those. values and beliefs of people be leveraged in order to move towards a common goal. I can say, for example, my value, I value the environment and I value it's importance in my life and various different ecosystems. So that value has led me to environmental work.

If other people can identify their values, it might lead them to work in other fields, sustainability or otherwise. It might be helping refugees and immigrants. It might be helping underserved people or under resourced people find access to household items or food or housing. As a professor my job is to teach, educate, hopefully inspire, and then help the students see their value and connection so that when they move into the professional world, they can make the difference that they want to make.

Aparna: That definitely [00:15:00] resonates. I think the most impactful courses the most impactful professors are the ones who do exactly what you do, right? You get to know the student you get to know what drives them and you really try to encourage and grow that passion yeah really appreciate the work that you're doing Betsy.

Betsy Brunner: I love it. It's so fun.

Aparna: It really is! In terms of again both aspects of your life I like how we did that last question, if you were speaking to folks who are listening and if those people are saying wow what Betsy does is what I want to do I want to split my time work at a national lab I want to teach. I want to inspire. Do you have practical advice for them in terms of skills certifications experiences that might set them up for success like this?

Betsy Brunner: What I would say is I've been doing these careers separately for close to two decades. So I've worked in nonprofit singularly. I've worked in academia singularly. But every time I was in one, I was always playing in the other. So [00:16:00] for example, when I was an academia and I was doing my PhD, I couldn't help myself from applying for a grant from the sustainability department at the university of Utah, where we brought in artists from China to do artwork on air pollution, because Salt Lake also suffered from air pollution.

Was that a huge part of my PhD? No, but was it a really fun and important part in a way to engage the community and be creative? Yes. So start small, find your role and then dabble in the others. I think if you tried to do this right away, it might be a little bit difficult or you might spread yourself too thin.

Similarly, whenever I've been in nonprofits. I've always worked with academia to bring in lessons learned from those academic research papers that may be really hard to read and exist behind a firewall. So how can we get academics to come in and share their perspective? I also work for a organization called Research for Impact that does that very thing.

It links researchers with [00:17:00] practitioners to share information. Rather than read a 30 page article, with a lot of big words that you don't understand, you can just have a 30 minute conversation with an academic who can explain it to you in plain language and answer some of your questions about it.

Or if you're a researcher and you want to do work to understand changes being made, you can talk to a practitioner and maybe start a collaboration where you're going to collect data and analyze it. So I think to answer that question, if you wanted to do something like this, pick a primary and then integrate a secondary thing that you want to play with in your free time.

And it can start with volunteering, it can start with conversations, it can start with integrating yourself into the community but start small and then work from there. And yeah, you can do all the things that you want to do.

Kiersten: So encouraging! I'm curious if there are any professional certifications again thinking of a listener who's in this mindset too- I love the advice to work in a primary dabble in a secondary and then go [00:18:00] from there but if they're thinking, " What skills do I have that would even allow me to get involved in a primary that I'm interested in?" A lot of times people look to things they can put on their resume before they get the job. Do you have any advice for either or both of your roles where there's something that stands out they could achieve?

Betsy Brunner: There are today so many certificates that you can get. If you are a scientist or an engineer, and do you want to improve your communication skills, get a science communication certificate, lots of organizations will fund, partially fund, or at the very least support, extending your education or furthering your education.

So I think getting something like a Science Communication Certificate is a really smart thing.

The other thing that I would say is that if you don't have the time to get a specific certificate, whether that's in science communication or sustainability, having volunteer experience at a non profit, or a community organization [00:19:00] or with local government can also go a long way on a resume to say that you care and that you're willing to do this and that you're passionate about the subject matter or topic and it can provide you with a really incredible learning experience as well.

I've found that in teaching organizations and social change, one of the things I do is make them volunteer every semester. They're a little bit resistant, but every semester students always tell me this is one of the most incredible things that I've done, impactful things that I've done to volunteer with an organization.

And not only does it give me a line on my resume, but it gives me connections and a feeling of fulfillment.

Aparna: I'm glad that's one of the pieces that you push in the class and really nice to hear that folks who participate have such a positive reaction afterwards. I think volunteering is one of the best ways you can spend your time So our next question is quite and it'll I think appeal to the creative side if us as Kiersten and Aparna were to give you Betsy a [00:20:00] magical crown, We turn you into this celestial sustainability being if you will and you have the power to implement one policy change maybe one social change that might to further the energy and sustainability transition. What would your one change be?

Betsy Brunner: I really think that carbon free energy is so incredibly essential. I know it. I don't think it. I know it. We all we know it. If you look at the numbers, carbon free energy is so essential. If I could wave a magic wand. I would implement a policy that made implementing carbon free energy sources like nuclear easier across the planet.

And by this, every country has its own set of rules and requirements that it has to deploy nuclear as a carbon free energy source. That creates a lot of issues and extra work for industry and regulatory commissions and so forth. So this isn't my idea, so I can't take full credit [00:21:00] for it but, if we were able to develop a set of common policies globally that everybody was willing to agree upon, and then maybe there's extras for different countries, that might help streamline the process of siting these where carbon free energy is really necessary and only possible with this kind of support, especially as we look at the need to do this really quickly and efficiently.

We can't wait to decarbonize. We need to be doing it now and as quickly, efficiently and safely as possible.

Aparna: Had to have happened yesterday, right?

Betsy Brunner: Yes, ideally yesterday.

Aparna: A quick anecdote, there's a group that just installed a mock small modular reactor next to where I live here in DC and it's been really cool to see folks stop they look at it. They're like what is this cylindrical device that's taking up like half a city block? you know It's been a really cool educational experiment because they have a bunch of QR codes. They have folks that stand around it sometimes and just engage with the [00:22:00] public and get everyone accustomed to the idea that nuclear isn't scary, nuclear is potential. It's been really awesome to see SMRs. becoming part of vernacular

Betsy Brunner: I couldn't agree more. That's an amazing way to educate people and just be really open and honest and straightforward about it. I know there's a lot of concerns, but let's address those. Let's talk about them. Also understand that when you look at the numbers, nuclear is one of the safest, if not the safest form of power generation, and you also get a lot of bang for your buck, a little gummy bear uranium pellet is the equivalent to how many barrels of oil? I'm so excited about that. Thank you for sharing.

Kiersten: I was with Aparna on a walk once and we were both like what is that and sure enough there were people there happy to answer our questions I think that was even before the QR codes were installed I was still under construction at the time. A very cool experience to stumble upon sustainability in the wild. We're going to start moving into our little bit more lighthearted, [00:23:00] maybe a little bit more actionable closing questions. So the first one is you mentioned volunteering. So I'm sure that's something you'd recommend. We would love to hear any specifics.

Betsy Brunner: I think that the best place that you can volunteer oftentimes is your local nonprofit, because you're going to be introduced to local policies, local issues, and you're also going to be able to see the impact of your work probably more quickly. So if you have a local nonprofit that works on energy or environmental sustainability or deploying a particular I think there's solar for all programs and I would say, get involved there.

The other thing that you can do is if you're a student, undergraduate or graduate, do an internship. There are so many internships and there are internships at all 17, I think, of the national labs and that's an incredible learning experience, plus they prioritize your [00:24:00] professional development. So you get paid pretty well and you learn on the job, you get work experience and tons of professional development opportunities.

So any kind of internship I think is really important. The other thing is don't be afraid to reach out. If you have an idea, if you're already in the industry and you have an idea, you are you're a startup or you are an emerging business. Or you want to expand your business, the national labs are in play to help create a new energy future by supporting the development and deployment of clean energy technologies.

We don't come up with all the answers at the labs. We absolutely know that we need to, talk with industry to share lessons learned to help industry. If you are one of those people and you want to get involved with the national labs, by all means, reach out, contact one of us and we can see, can we help you with data collection and analysis?

Can we help you with testing or other forms of development? Or can we just have a conversation with you where we help work out some of the [00:25:00] issues you might be facing and or direct you to another national lab that might be able to help more? So those would be my pieces of advice. for now.

Aparna: Really appreciate that. And then on the same line of thought, I'm curious if there are books or documentaries, in addition to the resources that you just mentioned, that you'd recommend others to listen or read, watch?

Betsy Brunner: This is going to be a little bit of a pivot, but the two books that have been the most impactful for me recently are both by Robin Wall Kimmerer. One of them is called Braiding Sweetgrass and the other is called Serviceberry and the reason why I bring these up is because it teaches different ways of seeing the world and looking at the world so that we move from always a perspective informed by a capitalist economy where we're consuming and throwing away throwing away.

So in these books she talks a lot about moving from that kind of one way model to a circular model where we're [00:26:00] constantly getting back, we're understanding how our actions impact other beings human and otherwise, and so it's a really good way to bend your mind. Same movie wise, one that stuck out to me recently is Kiss the Ground.

And it's narrated by Woody Harrelson. Also for a similar reason, it makes clear the importance of circularity and systems. When we make one way systems they can't live very long if we are giving back and we're creating circular systems, circular economies, then we have the potential for longevity.

Kiersten: Another fun question we have for you is: how do you implement sustainability in your personal day to day? If you have a favorite, we'll call it a quirk, I know my friends think I have lots of quirks, some of which they end up adopting, which is the highest flattery to me. So if you have anything like that, you'd want to share, we'd love to hear it.

Betsy Brunner: The thing that I do the most is bike as much as possible, and this has [00:27:00] multiple benefits for me. One, sometimes it's faster than a car. Two, I always get the best parking space right outside the building. Three, it really reduces the likelihood of any kind of road rage I might experience. And four, it's good for me to get some of that energy out.

It's really good for me to get my blood pumping, so I love to bike to work. The other thing that I really like to do, and I try to implement this in the new year every year, is just go on periodic, buying fasts, which means I just don't buy anything that's not essential. That's not food or toiletries.

I think when everything's a little click, buy it now, swipe away. It's really easy to say, "Oh, that looks cool. I want that in my life." But it doesn't usually add that much joy to me and it's really nice to reset yourself. I look at it as a resetting moment where you avoid getting addicted to, or used to, that form of consumption.

And then it's [00:28:00] also really nice to see your savings account increase.


Kiersten: I just have to say I'm coming to the close of a low buy year, and I've been keeping a spreadsheet, so I'm really excited on January 1st of 2025 to see how it goes. I think I did amass too many clothes, but I also re- homed a bunch of clothes. So I didn't specify, which is ironic given my profession, if I was doing net zero or strict numbers in kind of thing.

So we'll see if results inconclusive, but I'm excited to review all my data.

Betsy Brunner: I also love clothing swaps. Those are the neatest thing because you always walk away with something that you're so happy about and you didn't pay for it and it's connected to a fun event and you get rid of stuff that you don't want. I think those are great. I love clothing swaps.

Aparna: We were literally talking to a friend about that yesterday. So very funny timing. Especially around this time of year, right? Everyone is in a white elephant kind of mood. How about a sustainable white elephant? So Betsy, [00:29:00] our last question to round out our conversation today is what kind of legacy you hope to leave behind through your work?

Betsy Brunner: That is a great question and hard one to answer, but what I think would be ideal for me is if I could leave behind an inspired and expanded workforce where more brilliant minds are coming together and understanding that they can make a difference as teams. Also that group of brilliant collaborative people are really foregrounding that collaboration component.

We live in a country where competition is really important and I'm not saying that we shouldn't have competition. It has really great benefits. However, I think that we could balance it out with a little bit more collaboration, sharing lessons learned. So if I could leave behind or have motivated a bunch of people to get into this, to share and to collaborate by sharing lessons learned so that we're not duplicating efforts and we're moving towards the goal that we all [00:30:00] have faster.

That would leave me incredibly satisfied as a human being.

Aparna: I can speak for both of us that we very similarly have that passion, just wanting to impact, wanting to create better than what we had and that's the great things about folks that work in sustainability. I think we all have a very similar mindset of leave better than what you found. And with that, I believe we're at the close of our conversation here. So I wanted to say again, thank you so much for your time, your insight, your help, and all of this. It's been a pleasure to learn from you, speak with you, we're really looking forward to staying in touch and seeing how things progress.

Betsy Brunner: Thank you so much for having me and please do stay in touch and if you're listening reach out if you want to chat.


Outro

Aparna: Thanks for tuning into this episode of green collar. We hope you found our conversation with Betsy Bruner as fascinating as we did.

Kiersten: We would love to hear from you. Let us know what jobs you'd like to learn more about in an episode review, wherever you're listening to this podcast.

If you liked what you heard, don't forget to like, and subscribe wherever you get this podcast.

Aparna: And if you have any questions on the episode ideas for future topics, or just want to say hi, please send us an email at thegreencollarpod@gmail.com or find us on Instagram and LinkedIn at green collar pod.

Kiersten: Before we go, just a quick note that opinions expressed in this podcast are our own and do not reflect the views of our employers or any organizations we're affiliated with. 

Aparna: Until next time, stay curious, stay inspired, and obviously sustainable, and we'll see you on the next episode of Green Caller.