10 - Justin Den Herder

Featuring Justin Den Herder, who is not only a structural engineer from TY Lin, but also a professor of Structural Poetics, and a poet! 

Connect with Justin on LinkedIn. 

Terms mentioned:

• Adaptive reuse - "In architecture, adaptive reuse (also called building reuse) refers to the repurposing of an existing structure for new use." 
• Mass timber - "Mass timber is a new category of wood product that can revolutionize how America builds. It is comprised of multiple solid wood panels nailed or glued together, which provide exceptional strength and stability."
• Circularity - "Circularity is the economic concept of reusing or regenerating products and resources throughout the value chain to reduce waste. It is the foundational idea behind the circular economy."

Resources:

• Finding the Mother Tree: Discovering the Wisdom of the Forest by Suzanne Simard
• Designing the Forest and Other Mass Timber Futures by Lindsey Wikstrom 
• Migration: New & Selected Poems by W.S. Merwin 
• Pilot Projects
• Cities4Forests
• Design for Freedom by Grace Farms

Fact Checks:

Justin mentions that 66% of the of the world's population will live in urban centers by 2050 but wasn't sure - he was pretty close! According to the UN, "55% of the world’s population lives in urban areas, a proportion that is expected to increase to 68% by 2050." 

Transcript

[00:00:00] Aparna: Thank you again for joining us, Justin! We're really excited to have you on the podcast. We wanted to hear more about you, your journey to sustainability and your current role, and we'd really love to highlight all the steps along the way.

[00:00:12] Justin: Yeah, I work at an engineering company called T. Y. Lin, and I'm a structural engineer in the buildings group. I would say the notion of sustainability is something that has been carried along through the legacy company that I work for, which when I joined was initially Robert Silman Associates, and now we're part of TY Lin. Bob Silman was very instrumental in thinking about sustainability and how we can reuse materials. Some of our first projects when Bob was a sole practitioner involved, repurposing and reusing existing materials, in affordable housing projects that were rather dilapidated, so we kind of built our firm's reputation at least initially on adaptive reuse and reuse of materials.

I am, just one person that's part of that, cherished legacy of trying to reuse what we have and then when we design new, trying to optimize those materials and be respectful of the amount of materials that we're putting into buildings. Of course, we're collaborating every day with architects and other designers and other disciplines.

There's sort of a messiness to collaboration, but there's also a lot of joy when there is, sort of a singular vision that's upheld on a given project of sustainability being a key driver. I've had great experiences and great collaborations where that's been at the fore of a project. Makes me feel good to be an engineer in those moments.

[00:01:44] Kiersten : Was there a defining moment that took you from just being a structural engineer to one that's really focused on sustainability? And if you need to go further back, maybe the sustainability was always there, so feel free to walk us back through what you studied and other positions you had before you got where you are.

[00:01:59] Justin: I mean, going way back, I worked on a farm growing up, and I worked for my uncle's heating and air conditioning company, installing ductwork in attics in the summer heat in New Jersey and then I got a job in high school building and fixing computers. And I don't, I can't think of a direct thread between, those things and what I do now in terms of sustainability, but I did learn a lot of how to deal with people and how to deal with clients, and to make sure that in anything I was doing as kind of meeting the client's needs.

So it, it maybe just offered a bigger perspective of respect for the people doing the work, doing the construction, building the projects, the value that they bring, the knowledge that they bring. So when I became a structural engineer, I always thought it was very odd to simply hand a design off to somebody else who is going to build it and act as though the collaboration were done. So I kind of naturally gravitated towards this role of trying to learn from contractors, and people who are on the building side of things, because there's a lot of economy to be found in the fabrication process and the installation process.

In terms of defining moments, that's all sort of a backdrop. I mentioned Bob Silman, he was a professor of structural engineering and philosophy. He taught at a few different schools and he changed my perspective of what it means to be a structural engineer when he gave a presentation during lunchtime at our office, probably 15 years ago or so, and the title of the presentation was "Ought we build it?" With the premise that, with enough monetary resources and enough materials, we could solve pretty much any classical engineering problem that we're confronted with. If you want a cantilever to cantilever that far, if you want to design and build the CCTV tower, you could do that, right?

But, is that the right thing to do in terms of the broader context where in engineering resides? And that was a pivotal moment for me because I realized I wasn't just an auto automaton who was here to design steel, to steel connections as efficiently as possible. Yes, I was that to a degree, but that I could have agency over a project and influence whether or not it gets built, whether or not I choose to work on it, whether or not our firm chooses to participate in that project. so that obviously extends to sustainability and many other different factors. But that was a big moment for me, that realization.

[00:04:29] Aparna: I feel like professors, they come into our lives and say something so offhanded and it sticks with you for the rest of your career.

Some of the best ideas that we've had throughout my experience as well has come through collab with architects, with designers. So very much resonate with what you were saying there. One of the through lines of our podcast is that we believe every job can be a green job. We were curious if you had thoughts around that?

[00:04:50] Justin: I would say this is something that I guess is personal, but probably not unique to me. I find that we live in a culture where we put our guards up sometimes when we come to work. This is the Justin that comes to work. This is the Justin that has his own personal life.

I have a hard time doing that. I feel like where I go when I hear this question is that, it's not so much about a green job as it is kind of a green vocation. And to me, any job pin can be a green job means that what you have chosen to devote so much of your life to flows out of a broader ethos of how you want, the natural world in the built world.

In my case, being an engineer, extracting from one of those things and giving to the other, if you want there to be more reciprocity between those two things, then that's an opportunity for you. I find it an opportunity for myself to seek out the opportunities to represent those ideals.

So whether it's, Self-educating, whether it is, finding opportunities within your profession to become a spokesperson, be an advocate on a small microcosmic scale.

You'd be surprised at what kind of influence you have if there's genuine passion behind it. That might be a little bit of a kind of philosophical bent to it, but I feel like that's how every job becomes a green job.

[00:06:18] Kiersten : I think we agree, honestly, hit the nail on the head with a lot of what you've said. We feel like if you bring that passion, there's gonna be limits in every situation, but if everybody's bringing it, we'll push those limits and before you know it, hopefully the economy could look very different. That's our thought there.

You mentioned having agency in your role and bringing that passion and that ethos. So I'm curious if we can dig in a little bit to what your day-to-day looks like and how you're doing that. I know you have some feelings around maybe mass timber, adaptive reuse, urban infill. I wanna give you the space to talk about some of those things.

And the listeners may not be in this industry, so feel free to take it at a 101 of what those things are and why they would be important.

[00:06:58] Justin: it is true that, over the past couple of years, my role within the company has gravitated more and more towards a dedicated role of mass timber and sustainability as a focus. My day to day as a structural engineer involves a lot of meetings on a number of projects of varying sizes and scales, new construction and adaptive reuse and renovation related projects.

Although we're specialized as structural engineers within the realm of structural engineers, we are actually more of a generalist, which I think sets us a little bit apart from other structural engineering firms, which may have specialized groups, we tend to be a little bit more, in the sphere of generalists.

And the reason for that is because when I'm sitting down with an architect looking at how we solve a particular detail on a project that is new construction, in my mind, I have a repository of existing building details and structural systems that I've seen. Which, as clever as we think we are, we are usually not solving unique problems.

Usually these challenges from an engineering perspective have been solved at some point in time. so we find there's a lot of ingenuity and creativity and kind of, cross pollination of ideas between projects, new and old. So that level of collaboration on projects, internally and externally.

Of course, our job is very technical in nature, so there's a lot of technical stuff that we're doing, reviewing analysis models, reviewing calculations, but a surprising amount of the job and the success of the job flows out of an ability to. articulate those designs, anticipate challenges and issues, and step up to meet those challenges when they arise with a myriad potential solutions.

So a lot of my role is doing that kind of creating a roadmap for collaboration on our projects. It just so happens that the trajectory of my career has gone on one that involves, when I'm working on new construction projects, a lot of complex geometric projects. And then, contrast that, or maybe not contrast, but complement that with complicated adaptive reuse projects where we're adding stories to buildings.

We're threading new structural elements through existing buildings we're building. on top of alongside through, all of these things and I really grew to love the challenges of trying to reuse existing buildings. It's just a different set of challenges often. and there's something magical about being able to revive a structure that has maybe been vacated for 4, 5, 6 decades.

breathe new life into it, still have the historic fabric of that material and the history of what that building was initially used for, to still have that be part of, this revived space. But then to have it be able to perform new functions, is really gratifying. So I've come to really appreciate those projects immensely.

And it just so happens that, The, my opinion, the adaptive reuse is the primary way forward for structural engineering because of our cities, our amazing repositories of material, and we need to redirect our skills to being creative about how we can, integrate and weave those into, new works of architecture and new functions.

[00:10:19] Kiersten : I agree so much. In fact, the, my most favorite apartment that I've ever rented was actually an adaptive reuse project. It was an old factory. and they. Fixed it up and turned it into condos and we were renting one of them, but it had, as a result, the original wood factory floors with the big thick nails that they had left in place.

It had brick walls and 18 foot ceilings. And then they had put in some new energy efficient windows, but they had the original shape with the arch that were like 10 feet tall. It was my dream apartment. I still think about it and it wouldn't have existed in the way that it did if it hadn't previously been, a factory, 

[00:10:56] Justin: No, that sounds like my dream apartment too. My wife and I live in a very old apartment with very sloped floors that if I was designing a new building would not pass muster. But it's a special place with all the old detailing and, Yeah, you feel like you have one foot in the present, one foot in the past, which is great.

It makes you feel connected to a space. I see more and more a trend of the value of that sense of connection through adaptive reuse. And we need to really lean into that, a lot more, and continue to be creative around how we find new uses for existing buildings.

[00:11:33] Aparna: It's helpful to know the building has personality, Know where you're located as opposed to ambiguous glass, building it ambiguous, big glass city. I try to search for old buildings as well, got a special place in the heart for 'em.

[00:11:46] Justin: Yeah. And it seems harder to find.

[00:11:48] Aparna: Yeah, so unfortunate. If Anyone's listening out there and you have your eyes on an old building, please let us know. We would love to help reuse this place, So if people wanted to follow in your footsteps, are there skills, certifications, experiences that you'd recommend? 

[00:12:03] Justin: With respect to structural engineering, obviously there are kind of baseline academic and technical requirements. I had a great education at Manhattan College now called Manhattan University. That's where I got my Bachelor's of science degree and they helped direct me towards Silman.

And now TY Lin where I work. So I'm grateful for the great professors that I had. A lot of it was kind of trial by fire and learning on the job, and being attentive and asking a lot of questions and being teamed and paired with great mentors, from whom I could receive proper guidance, to eventually take owner more and more ownership of the projects that I was working on. In terms of sustainability and mass timber, which haven't talked too much about mass timber yet, but, with respect to those spaces, I have kind of just read a lot.

And, for me, that usually comes in the form of, just reading books, reading books related to climate, understanding the position that we're in at a global and planetary scale. And then coming to the horrific realization that the built environment is, one of the major contributors to global warming potential and carbon emissions.

And then sort of having the existential crisis of, should I just quit being a structural engineer then should I just tap out? Which I think is a very valid feeling that people have, when they understand the amount of pollutants and how fraught, aspects of the built environment can be.

When I had a chance to kind of collect my breath a little bit, I realized that perhaps the industry needed dedicated people to try and lead the way to a future that was using more renewable resources, more bio-based, low carbon, materials. and then it became a little bit more of a calling or a vocation for me than an obligation. If not me, then, who, right?

Or if not you all to have this podcast. then who's gonna step up? Lest we risk just running headlong down the same path. so for me it really was driven out of a sense of urgency alignment with how I would want the built environment to be in conversation, so to speak, with the natural environment.

I started to read a little bit more about, a lot of adaptive reuse, timber based projects with kind of old growth heavy timber. So I did have a background in designing with wood, but I couldn't open up an architectural or engineering publication without seeing something about mass timber.

mass timber sort of for me, became a way in to better educate myself, try to be something of a leader and an expert in that field. and naturally the more you learn about it, you become a little bit more magnetized towards those opportunities. So that's what started to happen. I started to learn more about forestry through some design competitions that I was running, or happened to be a part of, through some books that I was reading.

Dr. Simard's book, “Finding the Mother Tree,” Lindsey Wikstrom's book. Lindsey, who's a collaborator of ours, she published a great book called “Designing the Forest.” That book opened my perspective. so I started learning a little bit more about these practices and thinking if we are going to reinvigorate the built environment and decarbonize the built environment, and if we're going to use wood to do so, then we need to think about how we can plan and grow the forest and grow our resources to plan for a mass timber future.

And I should back up by defining mass timber, and the differentiation between mass timber and say a traditional sawn lumber like the two by four or two by six, is that, A mass timber element is a beam or a wall or floor panel that is made up of, sawn lumber that is glued together with high tensile epoxy and then pressurized, put in a hydraulic press.

And the result is, a larger format wood member and that larger format wood member is stronger than all the individual constituents and smaller pieces of wood that make up that member. It's exciting because it allows us to build taller and to span farther than we ever have with wood, historically.

It's those possibilities that have sort of injected mass timber into. Pretty much every architectural and structural engineering conversation, and maybe that's just the circles that I'm running in these days, but it feels like everybody's talking about it. It felt very important to me that, if I were to be seen as any sort of expert in the mass timber fields, that I understand how forests work and how trees work.

So I started reading more and more about those things to try and develop a comprehensive, holistic understanding.

[00:16:52] Kiersten : You mentioned, if not me, then who in your answer and I love that. I think that's part of why Aparna and I are doing the podcast as you alluded to, but I wanna call attention to the fact that structural engineer is not your only job title. You also teach a class, right? So maybe you could tell us a little bit about how you're planting the seeds, if you will.

So we're talking about trees. How are you planting the seeds in the minds of young professionals? 

[00:17:19] Justin: That's part of what I love about trees and, and. Mass timber is that the metaphors are abundant and fun. but thank you for asking. I teach a course at Cooper Union in the Irwin Chanin School of Architecture. I teach architects and the course title is structural poetics.

Structural engineering and poetry are two loves, and trees are, I would say three of the, loves of my life, and for me there was always sort of a dichotomy between writing poetry and structural engineering.

And I think this is a stereotype that these two different sides of your brain are different sides of the brain and never the two shall meet. During the pandemic, I had some time to think about this a lot more and my own poetry writing that I do as a hobby and how my structural engineering career was evolving.

when I flipped the question and instead asked, how are these two things similar, I was pretty amazed by some of the responses. a course curriculum sort of began to develop out of the ways in which structural engineering and poetry are similar.

The ethos of the class is to try and describe it in the most direct form of the metaphor. As a structural engineer, I feel that I am doing my job best when I am utilizing the least amount of material to maximize the expression of an architectural form to allow, function to happen within it, a given function, right?

You could say the same, I think with poetry in the sense that the materials that you're working with are words and you can maximize the effect of a word within a poem. It's just a slightly different, maybe physical versus metaphysical, but there's beautiful similarities between the two.

So I use the term structural poetics to describe the structural engineer that I hope to be and how I hope to collaborate on my projects and professional practice. This is born out of the ideals of a few different attributes. economy of structure, efficiency of structure, elegance of structure, and the equity of a structure for whom are we designing a building?

Who is it serving? These are really important questions and it circles back nicely, I think, to the "ought we build it?" question. I would say I'm far from perfect in terms of meeting those ideals. But the whole point of an ideal is that it, it's more of this asymptote that you're ever approaching the ideal, but you know that you won't ever truly get there.

Because even if you can define it, it's an ideal. So it's something, it's the work of a career. It's the work of a lifetime. The class that I teach centers currently around adaptive reuse and mass timber and how those two branches of structural engineering can contribute towards this ideal of structural poetics, which represents these attributes within the built environment.

You know, my job is successful when the structure is kind of working harmoniously with the form of the architecture if we're developing something and then just trying to stuff it above a ceiling or behind a wall or something. You know, sometimes that has its place and its role, but I would hardly say that that's harmonious.

There's a fun expressiveness and elegance to it, that I, I really enjoy striving for.

[00:20:37] Aparna: Very well put. I was telling Kiersten after I met you at Climate Week, earlier this year, that you had a very beautiful way of saying things and conveying your points. And Justin, you did it again. It's a gorgeous way of looking at the built environment, right?

And it's a very beautiful relationship to have with the buildings that we're inhabiting and we spend most of our time indoors, right? So you want it to be a harmonious relationship. You want to feel safe, comfortable at home, at ease. 

[00:21:03] Justin: Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:21:05] Aparna: On our train of mass timber creating equitable spaces that are in harmony for everybody, going to give you the crown of you being, the sustainability celestial being for one day with this crown, with this power that you've been granted.

Justin, what would be one major global policy you'd implement to accelerate the sustainability transition? 

[00:21:25] Justin: This isn't, maybe as tangible as I would like it to be, but maybe you all can help make it more tangible. I think if I were to wave a wand, it would be to help everybody within the built environment understand, truly understand the interconnectivity between the natural world and the built world.

You know, we stay, we live in an interconnected world, and we do, I'm talking virtually to you all right now, which is wonderful. and I find that, humanity at large is kind of grappling with the technology and, The need for empathy and compassion that it brings when we can hear about things that are happening all over the world that we wish dearly we could do things about.

I've kind of turned that focus for me personally. I've thought about the people around me in this office here, my family and friends, and just thought about that on a smaller scale, about how I can appreciate the interconnectivity of the people that are around me and lean into those relationships, and support those people in whatever way I can because I know I will need support and have needed support.

The way this maybe translates is if I'm designing a mass timber building, I feel like I should be required to go touch the trees that are going to be part of that building. you could extrapolate that to other designers in many different ways. And, unfortunately it's kind of seen as a luxury if, if you're designing, say, a marble floor for an iconic or landmark structure, maybe the architect gets to go to Italy and go to the quarry.

But, historically this has been a real tangible part of architecture, that kind of tactile sense of visiting the place and seeing the extraction or the harvesting. I feel like, since our world is so interconnected, then, perhaps we should be taking that to the next level and requiring that policymakers or designers or people in various facets of the industry, visit and touch and smell and, and meet the people who are, harvesting the trees, milling the wood.

I feel like that will grow a deeper appreciation of materials. 

[00:23:33] Kiersten : I love it. A fantastic rule for our first sustainability, celestial being. 

[00:23:38] Justin: And maybe selfishly, this allows me to visit more forests.

[00:23:43] Aparna: Added bonus.

[00:23:45] Kiersten : I liked too your mention of connection. I think that exceedingly infrastructure is hidden from the users. So there are so many parts of our current world that we don't think about, be it waste infrastructure. You know, you put something in the trash can, you put your trash can on the curb and then it's out of sight, out of mind.

People don't really see where it's going in the impact that it's having. So I think that visibility and that connection and infrastructure is so important. And one of my favorite things about sustainability is how interconnected it really is. and the more connections you have, the more resilient the community. So I think that's fantastic. You might've touched on it with your role of understanding the materiality and sort of the supply chain of the built environment. But what actionable steps would you recommend to individuals and or corporations?

'cause we know there's a duality there in terms of responsibility. What steps would you recommend they take to move towards a more sustainable future in your industry?

[00:24:38] Justin: I think first talking about carbon is difficult because carbon is this invisible thing in the air. I've started to, on mass timber projects, talk more about the growth rate of trees and how many trees are in each one of the mass timber projects that we're working on, how many mature f trees or southern pine trees or whatever species we're talking about.

I think that the link between the growth rate of trees The integration of mass timber within the built environment is one way that perhaps we can appreciate that link a little bit more. I'm thinking about ways that engineers, designers, corporations and firms that are in this space can be creative about the ways that we think about, expressing and documenting and regulating the amount of materials that go into our design.

because I find, while we track embodied carbon on our projects here at TY Lin I find that it's really hard, it, it's less of a tangible thing. so I've started to think about other ways to be creative around that. And I think, certainly, Speaking out and recognizing and giving space to the, folks within your respective firms that have an interest, creating a pathway or an architecture for, somebody's career, to, encourage them to, learn more and be a little bit autodidactic, to learn more and to grow into a role that, aligns with their, personal ethos, I think is really important.

So creating a pathway in terms of a title structure or hierarchy or architecture is really important. Starting what we have here at our firm is a community of practice around sustainability, which is essentially anybody who's passionate or who needs a particular type of guidance around the topic of sustainability can go to this group of, subject matter experts, and hopefully with support, although we're always trying to find new ways, to support folks better, it's really important that leadership of firms be aware that this is really important for the resiliency of their own firms, for the resiliency of this industry, to support creativity and to align passions with opportunities for, leadership roles within sustainability.

[00:26:55] Aparna: I think you hit some fantastic points. The systemic change that we need from corporations in general, the amount of listening that everyone involved in this shift is going to have to do from the highest up to an entry level person to someone. A 10-year-old who's asking their community members what happens to my recycling. lots of communication, lots of empowerment, 

[00:27:16] Justin: Yeah, I, kind of, think about this a little bit in the sense of, what roles do we value as a society and what diplomas do we value? What roles do we value within our respective companies? And I kind of imagine, uh, scenario in the future where maybe an arborist is valued as much as, you know, a stockbroker, because what we value our roles and the jobs that succeed as a culture is a reflection of the values we uphold. There's also a broader mindset that underpins all of this, that needs to evolve, if we're to really make a market difference.

[00:27:52] Aparna: Kiersten and I have been tossing around terms for what we wanna call that, and we've landed on the sustainability shift.

[00:27:59] Justin: Yeah, it's almost like if you think about, Okay, if you set 10 sustainability goals and you were able to achieve that, then what happens next? Like, what does a world of success actually look like? And I feel like if you envision that, then maybe you end up meeting somewhere in the middle.

What does a successful built environment look like? What does a built environment where every project follows this ideal of structural poetics look like? I think there's a lot more thought that I need to put to that. Even as somebody who's putting forth these ideas, I think there's always room for more growth and thought around that. More imagination around that.

I think the one thing that I would add, we haven't mentioned the word circularity, and this is also a very important word that is very closely tied to adaptive reuse. the scenario is this, if, you or I were to design an end table out of wood for our apartment, being in this design space, we perhaps would do some drawings or do a little model, of that end table and precisely calculate how much wood we think it would need, what species we need, et cetera, et cetera.

Then we would go to the lumber yard, we would talk to the person there and make sure that we're minimizing the amount of waste we're working with, the materials that they have in inventory. To minimize our own cost and to minimize the waste on our small scale project. And it's kind of become remarkable to me that we would go to that extreme as individuals for an end table.

And I actually, I shouldn't say that that's an extreme. I think that's a thoughtful, mindful approach to designing something. But if we would do that for something like an end table, as an individual, then how are we not doing this at scale for our urban centers? We have no sense of the volume of material that's coming into our city, the volume of material that already exists in our cities, and that we have no mechanism for tracking or mitigating, Those things. And I think it's really important. we're in this era of big data. We have computational based tools that can help us track these things more, intelligently. And I really think that if we're to truly improve the relationship between the natural, and the so-called built environment, really the two are inextricably linked.

So I hesitate to even say that they're separate. But, for the sake of conversation, the fact that we have really no idea the volume of materials that are coming into our city, is rather shocking to me. And I think we need to make sure that we sync up the resources that we need for the next 80 years of, say I live here in New York City, so the next 80 years of New York City.

How much construction material do we need if we're to grow at a consistent rate, right? We can answer these questions, and develop appropriate guidelines while still respecting the growth of the city. The need, the great need for, building more housing. We can meet these challenges if we approach it thoughtfully and plan on an urban scale the same way we would for an end table.

I feel like that has to come with an adaptive reuse, a reuse first mentality. because that's the first mechanism that we have to, Build, but with lesser material. And then when we do have to build new, let's put the appropriate, guide rails, on the conversation and on the design to work within that positive constraint.

I've seen magical things happen when I collaborate with some of the best architects in the world, which I'm very privileged and honored to do. When you put a positive constraint around a design rather than just pure unhinged creativity, the boundary of a site or the fact that a subway tunnel might be passing underneath this portion of the site, or the challenge that we can only design this superstructure with mass timber, right?

Whatever that constraint is, I've seen it be flipped into a positive and it's part of the thing that ends up making that project very unique. I feel like we need to. plan more reasonably for the future of the buildings that we know, the square footage that we know we need within our urban centers.

I think I saw a stat that 66% of the world's population will live in urban centers by 2050. So if that is in fact the reality, then we have 25 years or so to be able to plan for that. I think we can plant the trees that we need to plant and plan for the material extraction to meet those challenges.

At least in a way that's better than the pure unhinged extraction of materials and growth that we have at present.

[00:32:43] Kiersten : We talked about actionable steps that individuals and corporations can take, to move towards sustainability. But this question is a little different. We wanna know if listeners are all on board, they've bought what you're selling, how can they support your work and get involved in your world?

And this might not be on a professional level, so just anyone, how can they advocate for what you're advocating for?

[00:33:06] Justin: I would say, I would be happy to collaborate with anybody on projects or ideas around projects or grant opportunities and innovation related opportunities. I get a lot of joy out of that. so certainly reach out to me via LinkedIn or email. beyond kind of, my own little sphere here, I wanted to give a shout out to my friend and colleagues, Scott Francisco, Sarah Wilson and Mack Phillips of pilot projects and Cities4Forests.

They're a Montreal based collective that is really dedicated themselves to this idea of partner forests where urban centers can be partnered with community led forestry practices around the world, so that there's transparency of supply chain. It's a great model for how I hope, timber supply chain can be scaled in a way that is a bit more equitable.

Design for Freedom is another group, at Grace Farms in Connecticut that's run by Sharon Prince, and she and Design for Freedom as a collective are dedicated to mitigating and eradicating, enforced labor and child labor within supply chains, of a lot of the common materials that we specify as, architects and structural engineers.

So I'd urge people to, Explore those, two groups and, join one of their upcoming events or join their newsletter. Those are two initiatives that are very important to me that I think, if somebody were to reach out, we'd probably meet at one of their upcoming events.

[00:34:44] Aparna: I know exactly what my next Google searches are going to be. So thank you very much for the pigeonhole. I'm gonna go down tonight. So similar theme of if there's someone who is looking to join this industry, so someone may be already in it, wanting to get more specialized into what you're doing or someone just entering, what is your top piece of advice that you'd give them? 

[00:35:03] Justin: I think my advice at this stage in my career, looking back, would be to encourage people to lean into. What they're passionate about beyond just their profession and seek to find ways to integrate their uniqueness. I cheesily use the phrase YOU uniqueness because I've found remarkable ways in terms of my own love of poetry and trees.

and perhaps I'm just extra fortunate to find ways to integrate those things into structural engineering. But I find if you love drawing, if you love painting, whatever your hobby might be, think deeply and reflect on the ways those things can truly enhance your career because your level of awareness and attentiveness, or the skills that you bring, or the passion that you bring to those hobbies, I think can really enhance your professional career. And I would say even if things seem like they're on the complete opposite ends of the spectrum, just do it as a thought exercise.

I think you'd be surprised at the ways that things can connect. and maybe that is ultimately the definition of what wisdom is, is just finding different weird ways in which knowledge connects, or hobbies and passion connects, with whatever you might be doing. I've found that for myself and I would like to think that's not just unique to me.

I see it In a lot of the people that I admire, this kind of syncopation of passions and profession.

[00:36:34] Kiersten : so much wisdom. Speaking of wisdom, we're gonna end with one question. You've definitely dropped a couple books, and a couple causes, which we will have for listeners in the show notes for you guys to check out. but for our final question, we wanna ask. If you had to recommend one book or one documentary or one resource, 'cause you've mentioned also that you read a lot to get where you are today.

What would that one be? I know it's hard to pick one, but.

[00:37:01] Justin: I'm gonna go a little more esoteric for me, the collected poems of W S Merwin. Which is a title called Migration. And I'm mentioning that because it's a bunch of his books condensed into one collection. poetry I would say, transformed my life in a meaningful way.

And W.S. Merwin is a very celebrated and fairly well-known poet as far as poets go. He lived on Maui for the latter half of his year, and bought an old pineapple farm. And the land had been decimated by the company that basically had a, a pineapple plantation there and slowly over the course of many decades, with his wife's help and gardening skills, planted one by one a palm forest.

And the radius of the palm forest is, as far as he could carry a bucket of water to, water the palms. This land that was, was barren is now 18 acres of world renowned palm forests. to me, to tie it back to the idea of. what success looks like beyond just our intermediate sustainability goals,

His book of poems, but more importantly, perhaps the way that he lived his life through those poems and through the land that he was inhabiting is, a vision of success to me. That's a model of, of generation or, or regeneration that I find very hopeful, even if it is on a small scale.

You know, this passion of poetry has opened pretty unique doors into my own career as structural engineering. I feel that I'm indebted to poetry in that way. 

[00:38:39] Aparna: Honestly, excellent suggestion, and I think you still fit the rule of one book since it is all bound together. So Thank you so much, Justin. This was a fantastic conversation and I feel like you dropped so many nuggets of wisdom throughout this hour. We really appreciate you sharing the time and space with us, and it's been really lovely to learn how you've merged your passion and your profession into this one aligned path. I feel very inspired. I hope the listeners are also feeling inspired, and thank you again 

[00:39:08] Justin: Thank you. Thank you very much. I very much appreciate the conversation and the platform and hope it's just the start of a longer conversation.