16 - Ingrid Stevens

Norwegian economist Ingrid Eileen Stevens joins us to share her journey from oil & gas to sustainable waste and water management, exploring biogas, circular economy innovations, and how Norway balances oil wealth with climate leadership.

Connect with Ingrid on LinkedIn and learn more about IVAR. 

Resources: 

• In Good Company - podcast
• Ministry for the Future by Kim Stanley Robinson - book
• Venomous Lumpsucker by Ned Beauman - book
• Read up about how folks set a max price on electricity by looking at a recent case study from the PJM capacity market. 

Terms mentioned: 

• Biogas
• VAT
• Biochar

Transcript

Aparna: [00:00:00] Hey, green collar listeners. Welcome back to another episode of Your favorite show about green careers. So today we have a very special guest. Her name is Ingrid Eileen Stevens. And Ingrid is a Norwegian economist with a background in the energy sector who's now working for an inter municipal company that delivers drinking water, handles waste.

And treats wastewater in the local county. She's trilingual in English, Norwegian and Spanish, and has lived in a great number of countries from Chile to Denmark, all the while deepening her knowledge about finance, marketing, energy, and EU trade regulations. Ingrid is also a dear friend who I met during my exchange in Santiago, Chile.

And also our first guest living outside the United States. Ingrid, we're thrilled to have you on the show, and I cannot wait for all the listeners to hear about your diverse background and experiences.

Ingrid Stevens: Thank you. Great to be here.

Aparna: We're so happy to have you. to start us off, we always like to ask our guests about their [00:01:00] path to sustainability and their current role. So could you walk us through your education, your time at previous companies, and how you ended up in your current role At IR.

Ingrid Stevens: I studied business and economics at the Norwegian School of Economics, and there I had two exchange semesters. One in Santiago, Chile, like you just mentioned, and another one in Prague in the Czech Republic. And when I lived in Santiago, I experienced that the drinking water got, , polluted during heavy rains and we had to go to the local store and buy water. at that point I realized that I've always taken clean drinking water for granted. And in my current role, that is actually something we, , strive to follow that people and the citizens should take clean drinking water for granted. , I'll come a bit back to what I do today, but, , after studying, I was accepted [00:02:00] to Ecuador's graduate program and Ecuador is Norway's largest, , energy. Company and a national energy company with main activities within oil and gas and renewables. . The new region state owns 67% of the shares in Ecuador, and the company has global presence with 25,000 employees. During my time with Ecuador, I worked in logistics, business development, and trading of, , carbon quotas and biofuels. And I was really excited to join the company, , during my studies because they have such an important role in the Norwegian economy and they, , contribute to maintain the welfare state that we are so fortunate to have. , And I also believe that with their solid earnings, , and still believe, , that they have their financial muscles. To invest and take lead and in the energy [00:03:00] transition. that was sort of my main motivation to join the company when I was a student. but my restlessness led me to seek new opportunities to work for EL so that I could work with sustainability every day. , And as you mentioned, uh, Aparna, , is owned by, , different municipalities in the local county. , Actually 12 municipalities and they all have different, , politics and different interests. And the company is set up a bit different to private companies because our goal isn't to maximize profit for shareholders, but rather how to reduce citizens' utility bills. ,

The company was founded in 1979 where, , wastewater treatment was , what the company started doing and focusing on developed into production of biogas. And today we produce biogas from wastewater , and food [00:04:00] waste. And the other different waste streams are either reused, recycled, or used for district heating productions. And we try to prolong the lifetime of the different waste streams and resources in order, , to lower, of course, the emissions, but also to lower the utility bills for the citizens. , One of the things that really excites me about this job is that, , it's so easy to see the results of what we're doing in the local community. And it's also impressed me a lot how the company collaborates with universities and research institutions to stay updated on the newest technologies and innovations.

Kiersten: Thank you so much. What a fantastic journey. , There are many directions we could follow off with because there's a lot of great content there, but I think we always are careful to define terms that your average person might not know. So you mentioned at your time at. EOR [00:05:00] and also in your current role, the term biogas. You did say two ways that you all create it with your wastewater and food waste, but would you be able to define for listeners the difference between biogas, vir versus natural gas, what it can be used for, things like that.

Ingrid Stevens: Yeah. So biogas is a renewable energy source that is produced from organic materials, such as food waste, but it could also be animal manure. And the organic matter is further, without oxygen, which leads to the production of methane gas and carbon dioxide. And in Eva, our biogas is further, , upgraded to bio methane, means that you split the CO2 from the methane, and then product is almost pure methane.

And pure methane is the same as natural gas. So the quality is the same as a [00:06:00] natural gas quality, which means that you can also inject, the bio methane into a natural gas grid, such as the gas grid infrastructure that, , is, , all over Europe. , And used yeah, for electricity or heating. Uh, but you can also compress or liquefy the bio methane and use it as fuel, , in the transport sector. And, , in our case, it's our local grid operator that compresses, , the bio methane, , and it goes further into trucks and heavy transport. And you might ask why. Why do you produce? Bio methane in Norway, , because Norway, , is generally using hydropower for electricity actually, and 90% of the electricity in Norway comes from hydropower. , we're quite self-sufficient, , on that. But, , the bio methane is used for larger industrial customers that would need. gas, [00:07:00] uh, in their processes and also for the heavy transport sector as I mentioned.

Aparna: Thank you for that definition and for a lot of the use cases that you see around you. I always love getting the 1 0 1 levels of different energy forms, and it's also fascinating to learn that so much of Norway's grid mix is from hydropower, right?

Because Norway is famously an oil exporting country.

Aparna: So it's interesting to see that it's not. Being produced to be used in the country per se, but just to be exported around.

 So I guess on that note too, then , Norway's famously pro sustainability and has a reputation for being an oil nation, but wanted to get your pulse check in terms of current events, especially with Russia, Ukraine, Norway has come up quite a bit. In that discussion in the sense of helping the EU with that energy reliability.

So out of curiosity, was there a big change that you felt during your time at Ecuador or what you've just felt as a Norwegian citizen around this topic?

Ingrid Stevens: Yes, [00:08:00] definitely. , Ecuador and Norway, uh, has without a doubt taken on the role of providing, , Europe with reliable gas supplies after the invasion of Ukraine. . , Before this, I would say that the European focus was concentrated around sustainability and the energy transition, whereas now in times of war and instability, the debate has shifted to focus a lot more on, , what we call the energy tri in Ecuador.

And, and that. Of, , security of supply, energy, affordability, and sustainability., and sustainability is, , also relevant here because natural gas has a lower CO2 footprint than, for instance, coal or oil, , which European industry has relied on.

Aparna: Okay. Interesting to hear, especially how EOR has really risen to the challenge and how y'all have felt it. Thank you [00:09:00] for sharing that. It's good to get some context of, , what it's like in a different country.

Aparna: So far at the show, we have called Norway, a pro sustainability country.

.

Aparna: , but we've also been talking about their oil exports, that they're an oil nation. So I think this you know, it, it begs for a little bit of context here, could you talk to us about how Norway balances being a sustainable country, but also having such high oil exports? And how the citizens are, benefiting from this with the Sovereign Wealth Fund that y'all have.

Ingrid Stevens: Definitely. as I mentioned, earlier, the, . State owns 67% of the shares in Ecuador. EOR pays a lot of taxes to the state and dividends and. Those earnings are invested in the oil fund that you mentioned, Aparna the oil fund, they are, , massive. they actually own about one and a half percent, , [00:10:00] of all shares in the world's listed companies.

So they have invested in around 9,000 companies globally and. The earnings from the fund go back to the citizens, in the way that the national budget every year, , is funded by, , the fund. And, the money , is managed so that we have long-term savings, , that will also be available for future generations when we don't have access to oil anymore. So given this wealth and the welfare state, uh, the Norwegian state has also, , set quite ambitious targets when it comes to sustainability and lowering our, , local emissions in Norway. And one example there of a regulation is that, have been quite heavily subsidized the last 11, 12 years at least. , And [00:11:00] last year in 20 24, 80 9% of all new passenger cars in Norway were EVs. It's mainly driven by an economic incentive. And that's, , VAT was cut from the sale of, , new EVs. , And in addition to that, there are lower road taxes, ferry prices are lower, and some parking is also cheaper for EVs. another driver is that the monthly costs are a lot cheaper if you own an EV in comparison to a fossil car because home charging is a lot cheaper than petrol and diesel. , We also actually have a, Max price on our electricity, , because electricity prices have rised in quite a lot the last couple of years.

So you also know that, , charging your EV won't exceed a certain, , price because we have this electricity support as well. There is also an extensive charging network across the [00:12:00] country. And, , yeah, the technological development with, , the EVs and their long range has definitely made it the preferable choice for, for Norwegian, , citizens.

Kiersten: That is fascinating to have a price ceiling on electricity. I feel like we could. Let's potentially do a whole episode on that as well. , Think though, instead I'm going to ask are there any misconceptions about sustainability in your industry that you'd like to address? We did already kind of cover the fact that biogas is something you would burn. , But there are some differences between natural gas and biogas. So anything else you'd like to cover?

Ingrid Stevens: Yes, maybe that, , all, public waste handling companies in Norway, are non-profits, so that your utility bill actually reflects the price of handling the waste. I'm not sure if everyone is aware of that in Norway, at least.

Aparna: It's nice to know that the utilities are working for you, ? They're doing their best to make sure that your utility bill is as low as it can [00:13:00] be and you're handling things as efficiently as possible.

 I think that begs another question, In terms of emerging trends and innovations, I think that EVAR is doing something really, really cool with the secondhand store concept that y'all have implemented. my opinion, this is a very cool trend that fascinates me. Could you tell us a little bit more about that and how y'all are doing it?

Ingrid Stevens: Yes, so the background for our secondhand store is that we strive to follow the waste tire. Hierarchy. So I'll start by briefly summing up what the waste hierarchy is. , the waste hierarchy shows a preferred way of waste management options based on their environmental impact and with the goal of maximizing resource efficiency. So at the top of the hierarchy, you have the preferred, , option for waste management, which is reducing your consumption. And the second most preferred option is to [00:14:00] reuse. And then the third is recycling. The fourth is recovering. So recovering would be like we do with a biogas, and the least preferred option is that waste goes to landfill. So. The secondhand store is an example of trying to reduce the amount of waste that goes to recycling and rather reusing it because a lot of the items that are thrown away are perfectly functioning, and they're in good state. So the secondhand store was, , started so that we could prolong the lifetime of as many, , items as possible.

Kiersten: As someone who's not familiar with this concept, specifically in the US for instance, we have, , garbage cans that we take to the curbside and garbage trucks, pick them up and take them to a transfer station or directly to a landfill. , Or we have secondhand stores. Where we can take donations, but there isn't really a mixing, so I'm just [00:15:00] curious what the process looks like and how do you collect this usable waste to take it to the secondhand store.

Ingrid Stevens: So the idea came from our transfer stations where they realized that a lot of the waste that was handed in actually was perfectly. Usable and was in great shape. So it is waste, , that is handed in at the transfer station that is, , collected and then sent to the secondhand store.

Aparna: Very cool. Thank you for explaining that. What are some examples of things that maybe one might find at the secondhand store? Say, I've moved into a new house, I've moved into a new apartment. Can I furnish things in my home from the store?

Ingrid Stevens: there is a lot of furniture. Everything from sofas. To tables, chairs. There's also a lot of, uh, ornaments and VAEs, kitchen, utilities, clothes, shoes, a lot of things for kids. So [00:16:00] toys and bicycles, that type of thing. Heaps of books. And also, . , Paint, paint leftovers actually. You can find electrical equipment as well.

Kiersten: Fantastic to save all of those goods from the landfill. It's really exciting to hear. We also wanted to give you a chance, are there any other emerging. Trends or innovations that excite you because you've worked in a lot of different areas, so this is one innovative thing that your company is doing, but even the fact that you're creating biogas from food waste, I would say is pretty innovative in a space we haven't explored much.

So any cool stuff going on in that area that you wanna share with the listeners?

Ingrid Stevens: so one innovation we're working with at the moment that's really exciting is a biochar project where we are, , looking into if we can use garden waste like big branches and burn that in a paralysis of and under high heat, which [00:17:00] gives us a product that looks like coal in the other end. , And that coal, , is, , sequestration a lot of carbon. Or CO2, which can again be used in farming and , it's like a sponge. So it's a great way of, , draining and keeping, water in the soil.

Aparna: That's a great visual. Thank you. I'm thinking of my kitchen sponge and how malleable that guy is. Shout out, kitchen sponge. Thank you for keeping things clean. So you've had very cool experiences, I think very distinct experiences, and I think it's been a great way for you to kinda see the breadth of sustainability, and especially coming from your econ background, having a new lens through which to view a lot of these things.

from your years of working in the industry, from years of being a conscious human being. If you now had additional abilities and we gave you a magic wand, we gave you a little crown, tiara, whatever you're feeling in the moment, and you could implement one major policy change to accelerate energy and [00:18:00] sustainability in today's world, what would it be?

Ingrid Stevens: That's a big question. I believe that the example of the EVs in Norway that economic incentives are really powerful in making change and pushing a, , change in the behavior. So I would say make CO2 emissions more costly.

Aparna: Okay, get a little carbon price going. We write a book called Ministry for the Future recently, and that was where the concept was nicely laid out for all of us here.

Ingrid Stevens: out.

Kiersten: When you said we read a book, Aparna, I got excited 'cause I thought you were gonna bring up Venomous Lump Sucker, which is

Aparna: Oh.

Kiersten: another book, , Ingrid that we've both read. And it's so good. , It's a fiction story, but you can tell once you start reading it that it pretty closely. I wouldn't say parodies, but maybe, maybe I would.

'cause it is a very funny book, but it sort of parodies the [00:19:00] carbon market , , in this fictional land, they've together credits for intelligent species. So if a company is to wipe out an intelligent species, they owe a certain amount of credits. If they simply endanger them, they owe another amount of credit.

So it's slightly less. So then there's this whole industry around certifying species as intelligent and also the the buying and selling of protection. unfortunately devastation of species credits. , So yeah, very similar to carbon credits. It's a really great novel if you're interested.

Ingrid Stevens: out.

Kiersten: Yeah, venomous lump sucker.

That is a species that reappears throughout the book, so it's a funny name. Um, but that's where it comes from.

Ingrid Stevens: Definitely. Thank

Aparna: If you look up the cover, it's just this like little blob that has spiky all over it. And I remember reading it on the metro, going from point to point B and it'd be like, oh, don't look at the cover of my book. This looks kind of funky.

So thank you for the magic wish. I think that carbon taxes, pricing, carbon, definitely [00:20:00] important pieces to this puzzle that some countries have been modeling for the rest of us, and we still have a lot to learn. switching gears from country policies to more of you as a person, Ingrid, and your career path.

Again, if there was a budding Norwegian scholar or a budding American scholar, a budding scholar in general, and they wanted to do what you do, are there any skills you think that are important for them to pick up? Are there any certifications that are important for them to pick up?

Ingrid Stevens: In Norway, there's generally a high level of education, so most jobs would require a master's degree, a university degree. Other than that, there aren't really any formal requirements in terms of certifications and that type of thing. If you're interested in the field and can demonstrate your curiosity and interest, that, brings you, far along the way.

Kiersten: , , 

so a little bit different [00:21:00] than here in the us.

 we've mentioned the sovereign fund, and you've just said a lot of jobs maybe don't require a certification, but do require higher levels of education. I'm curious if the education there is as costly as it is here in the us. Can you speak a little bit on the potential differences?

Ingrid Stevens: Yes, , there is no tuition fee in Norway for higher education and it's, , also generously supported in the way that you are. , Granted with a grant, , that will help you live away from home because it's very common to move, , away from your hometown and that will support you and help you cover your, , monthly costs such as rent and food and so on.

But many students choose to work in addition , to have a little extra 'cause it's not that you get heaps in that grant, , . But if you pass your exams and your degree, then , most of, this grant stays a grant. And then I think [00:22:00] about 50% is regarded as a loan that you need to repay, but it's very low interest rate and you repay it over several decades.

Kiersten: Thanks for the additional explanation. It's very interesting to compare the and barriers. It might sound like a barrier that most jobs require a master's, but it's a very different situation if you are. Are not paying for that master's. So

Ingrid Stevens: definitely,

Kiersten: yeah.

Ingrid Stevens: quite different.

Kiersten: Fascinating to consider for sure. well then you've had lots of learning, , through both your previous roles and your education in the school system. I'm curious, , how do you practice sustainability in your everyday life?

Ingrid Stevens: I try to follow the waste hierarchy that I mentioned previously, so reducing my consumption, trying to reconsider do I really need to buy this? That can be difficult sometimes. So when, , I really, really want to buy something new that I, I don't really need, I at [00:23:00] least try to buy it secondhand.

Aparna: Have you ever tried doing like a no spend month? Kirsten is the one that got me onto this idea and like anything new that comes into your house is only secondhand.

Ingrid Stevens: I haven't done it that strictly, but maybe I should try it out.

Aparna: Yeah,

I.

Ingrid Stevens: like a good challenge.

Kiersten: I can attest. They're really, really fun. I think you can customize them however you want, right? So you can make rules and exceptions if you wanna go out to dinner with friends, you know, that can be something that doesn't count against your no spend. But I do love how thoughtful it has made me around consumption of like, it's fine to spend money if I'm eating dinner with friends because it's an experience and it's social, , and I have to eat anyway. Whereas maybe if I'm at a mall, I don't think just this is a way to pass the time because I know there'd be temptation to buy a cute top or something like that where I, I don't need it. It's not really adding an experience to my life, et cetera, et cetera. So just the careful [00:24:00] consideration that it brings is, is quite nice.

But you can customize them so they don't have to be super strict. For sure.

Ingrid Stevens: Is very smart for the wallet as well, so

Kiersten: Yes. Um,

Speaking of the student loans that maybe you guys

Aparna: I.

Kiersten: have, I definitely did have them. Uh, and it was very helpful to getting rid of them.

Ingrid Stevens: nice.

Kiersten: Sustainably for your money and the, the environment. , So we've covered a lot in the episode so far. Similarities, differences, new types of renewable energy. , we like to ask all guests if they have resonated with what they heard. If they think your career sounds really fascinated and want to do something similar, what type of advice or words of wisdom would you provide to someone in that position?

Ingrid Stevens: I would say try to talk to as many people as possible. That could be through conferences or other external events to, to network and really learn what kinds [00:25:00] of jobs really exist. was one of my biggest questions when I was a student, was that , I didn't really know, , what was out there within sustainability.

Aparna: very excellent piece of advice. Half the people that we've had on this podcast so far are people we've met in the wild by just striking up conversations and , getting curious and trying to expand your network a little bit. So thank you for the encouragement on that.

Okay, another piece aimed at the listeners. Again, we always like to ask about books, documentaries, any resources that have helped you along or that you use to stay current with the industry. And these can be in Norwegian if you'd like, or English if you'd like, but would be very interested to see what you use.

Ingrid.

Ingrid Stevens: I would like to , share one English suggestion and that is the managing director of the oil fund. He has a podcast where he interviews and challenges many of the world's top leaders, including Elon Musk, was very happy [00:26:00] about. , And that that podcast is called In Good Company, so I can recommend that. I also enjoyed a Norwegian book called Couples Therapy for Oil Workers and Climate Activists. And that book addresses the importance of speaking together and avoiding polarization and the possibility of always being able to find common ground despite having different starting points and different views. And I think that's, , very important, \, point to take away. And in, in terms of Norway being an oil and gas nation, we know that. The world needs and depends on oil and gas today, but that shouldn't stop us from creating new and sustainable solutions and jobs.

Kiersten: We'll be sure to have all of them linked in the show notes for anyone that wants to follow up and check them out. Our last question for you today is, what legacy do you hope to leave behind in your work? 

Ingrid Stevens: I find that difficult to answer, but I. [00:27:00] I at least strive for people to view me as an inclusive and fair colleague. Uh, and I really want to ensure that the local resources are utilized in the most efficient way. 

Aparna: I love that as someone who has known you for many a moon at this point, and now we're quote unquote working together on this podcast. You're so forthcoming, generous with your resources and advice, so thanks, Ingrid.

Ingrid Stevens: I'm not sure if that's reached the US news, but in Norway at least, we've seen, videos of large mountains in the Chilean desert of clothes from the western world that ends up there in, in landfill, and that's. Absolutely horrible. And, something that motivates me in, in my job to avoid pictures like that.

Kiersten: I have seen them on Instagram. , I really, I love the idea of those striking images. I've seen them and I've felt strong emotions. But I haven't always known what to [00:28:00] do with those emotions. So I like your spin of drive is to have no pictures like that anymore. , It's a nice flip side of it, but they are quite striking and devastating and I've seen stats around them saying There are enough clothes in the world, , to clothe. Everyone for, I'd have to fact check myself for like the next three generations. 

Ingrid Stevens: Yes.

Kiersten: it's very interesting indeed. 

Ingrid Stevens: that still have the label on and things like that, that are brand new.

Aparna: Wouldn't it be nice if they just went to the secondhand store and said, if you bought it, you don't want it donate or go to the transfer station y'all.

Well, I think that brings us to the end of our time together. Thank you so much for your time, your advice, and giving a lot of really useful context on how this world looks outside of the US, where we're both based. , It's been great and I've learned so much and have a couple cool podcasts to listen to with some nice books and a lot of Googling to do about the intricacies of [00:29:00] biogas and biochar.

Ingrid Stevens: Thank you so much for having me. It was great to chat.